Chris Skinner (00:33):

Good morning everybody. It's a celebration in the farmyard this morning, the two geese, they're both over a quarter of a century old now, 25 years, and they're infertile. But Mildred the female still lays a full clutch of eggs, I dunno where they come from. And she's been incubating them for 20 days now, hardly coming off the nest perhaps once or twice a day. For this year I felt so sorry for them that I've bought four goslings in and I've had to destroy her eggs. Yesterday I checked them all in warm water before I destroyed them and they all floated, which shows the air sack was still inside the egg and that means they were rotten in other words. And after another few days, they would explode under her and there'd be a dreadful smell of sulphur dioxide and sort of that rotten egg smell. 

(01:42)
 And so I've taken pity on her and put these goslings, I'm gradually introducing them to her out in a little cage with some heat on. And so they're eating some grass and they're very, very happy and mum and dad or who they thinks mum and dad in close proximity the whole time. But I daren't let them out on the duck pond just yet because the pond's got quite steep edges in places and she will take them down there. And if a fox comes in a farmyard at night, which is quite normal, she will drop into the water and leave the goslings on the side. And of course they're quite vulnerable at this stage. They're yellow and very fluffy and quite buoyant, so I'm sure they would swim. But the weather has also been quite cool this last seven days. We're past the middle of April already in entering the third week now. And it's sort of quite interesting to think that it's only eight weeks to the longest day, June the 21st. So there we are. Oh, lovely sound. Here they are. 

(02:59)
 And they're not the only new arrivals because on last week's podcast, I'm just going to walk down the farm yard now we celebrated with Matthew Gudgin, who's going to be here later on this morning. We're going to be looking at the bluebells. We celebrated the arrival of the first two male swallows here. And although the wind has been coming from exactly the wrong direction, it's almost a northeasterly gentle breeze. But very cool this morning. The female swallows, the first ones have arrived, I’m just walking down the farm yard into the stable block and we'll just see what they're up to because they don't mess about. They get straight on with cleaning the nests out. It's busy down here already. It's early, early morning. There's girls arriving to tend to their horses and I think we're setting a new fashion here at High Ash Farm. It's called mucking out your horses with high heels on when you are all dressed up to go off to work. 

(04:07)
 So you do see some funny sights when you diversify on a farm. Right. Just come into the building. 1, 2, 3. Oh wow. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 swallows in front of me on the fluorescent lights and one pair looking at me now I'm just walking gently down. The old stable, is it the milking parlour from years ago? Oh, beautiful. I'm just going to lean against the wall. They're about six, seven feet from me only. And I've been watching the female at first light this morning and she's been cleaning the nest out, which you don't often see. And she'll be bringing in some new feathers, taking some feathers from her own breast and just arrived in the last few days. So it's all happening. Spring has really sprung and it's such a lovely sight. It'd be lovely if they burst out singing, but they're always a little bit suspicious early on until they get used to people right underneath them. 

(05:13)
 Bearing in mind just a few weeks ago, they were in South Africa and they've come up here on a diet of flies. But these are successful ones. They've made that really precarious migration northwards. Its such a lovely site, it's quite dark and cool in here, which is perfect over the summer months for rearing their youngsters. Oh, it's such a lovely site. Just a few feet from me can see that scarlet chin underneath the creamy white breast. And I can't see their tails because they're sitting on these very new low energy fluorescent. So if I walk just underneath, I'll be, oh, yep, there they go. Just flew out to the little window at the end. There's a door one end which never gets shut and a little window the other end and they're just flown out. There we are cracking. Start to the day, the new fashion in Norfolk, mucking out your horses with high heels on. You couldn't make it up. 

Matthew Gudgin (06:55):

Ratty, the terrible terrier is leading the way on our visit to High Ash Farm this morning. There he goes, exploring the hillside with the blue sky and the sunshine. A little bit chilly as well, but a beautiful morning. And Chris Skinner, this is your pride and joy here isn’t it?

Chris Skinner (07:10):

Absolutely. Matthew, again, once again, you're spoiled. I say this on nearly every podcast visit that you do to High Ash Farm, but you truly are spoiled this morning. And I don't mean Rat scurrying about up the woodland track in front of us. We're standing on a steep south facing escarpment here at High Ash Farm. These hills and the woodland associated with - a rabbit running across in front of us - were probably too steep to play with horses in centuries gone by. So they got left are kind of neglected and as a result, the flora and former here is absolutely stunning. And the reason it's stunning is because we have a display in front of us, which would grace even the most palatial gardens in the country. It's a display of bluebells and they've been here every year since I was a child and way before. I call it the living heritage and probably been here since Roman times and probably before. 

(08:20)
 And there's a little bit of mystery here where we're standing because on the other side of this field, it's a meadow beside us with horses grazing on it just over there. Only 200 yards from where we're standing are two Romano Celtic temples. And nobody has yet found the reason for those temple sites to be there. The first one was put in by the Iceni, a local tribe. And then later on when the Roman settlement happened here in AD 43, the Romans then built a second temple on top of the first one. And there's lots of archaeology still to be discovered there. So we don't know the reason why, but it's just beginning to dawn that the original set as the Celts, the iceni worship, very much the environment and the landscape and bearing in mind, although that's a meadow and been an arable field here for many years, it was all open woodland like this. And this, what we're looking at might well have been the reason because the whole of this landscape would've been covered in these bluebells. 

Matthew Gudgin (09:30):

And it is a beautiful sight. All the carpet of blue here, especially in the morning sunshine coming through the trees. And I mean what could be better? That lovely deep blue colour. And this doesn't last very long does it? 

Chris Skinner (09:41):

No, it's a phenomena of about one month long. And these are English blue bells. It's confusing because they've changed their scientific name, not once, not twice, but three times since I was a child. And so everybody knows them as bluebells. And when the English people think of Scotland bluebells, they think of a harebell as a Scottish blue bell, but very much it's almost a national flower of the UK actually. It's absolutely stunning. And if we have a closer look at them, you can see all the little bells hang down on one side. So these are proper bluebells. There's a kind of interloper as well, which has the flowers all the way around the stem. These are only just opening because it's cool today. Lots more to come down there in the plant. And some of the bulbs here, because they come into flower quite early, they come into leaf even earlier because when you look through the tree, the sunlight's coming in underneath. This canopy closes in over the top of them, whether if it's beech trees, you won't find bluebells underneath them. If it's pine or coniferous woods, the soil is too acidic for the bluebells. So old oakwood like this with venerable old nobbly oak trees all around us, jackdaws nesting in the hole just gone in behind you. 

Matthew Gudgin (11:10):

And there's a sufficient lack of leaves on the trees at the moment for this sweet spot of the year for these flowers

Chris Skinner (11:16):

Yes, it's exactly that. So from start to finish, it's a month long and the month after that I can take you through here and you'd say, what's here? It's all gone. The leaves die back now. So it has to get a shift on, there are two lily plants growing here. One is ransoms and that's also a lily. And that's the one if you crush the leaves, you get a very strong smell of garlic. And the bluebell is the other one that grows here. And then in a week or so, there's a slight pink hue here and it's a favourite spot for early purple orchid as well, growing in amongst this. So it is how we look after and revere our sort of built heritage things like cathedrals and museums and some of the venerable old buildings in London, for example. We actually almost worship them and look after them. And these are left out in the wild, but they've probably been here longer, probably since the end of the last ice age. That's why they're absolutely brilliant. 

Matthew Gudgin (12:23):

So these are the same plants? Yes. As the Romans would've seen over there? 

Chris Skinner (12:26):

Yes, except the bulbs in some of them because there's lots of rabbits digging and burrowing in here. And when I look down the rabbit holes sometimes over the winter months, I can see the bulbs, just see the edge of the bulbs and they can be over a foot deep because the leaf litter builds up over them. And then each year these flowers will form little pods once they're finished, the pods then ripen over the summer months. But the pods face downwards to start with. They're like green little globes. And eventually when as they ripen they turn upwards and the cups then open at the top and they have up to a dozen tiny shiny black seeds in them and they blow about in the autumn gales and shed the seed. And also the local pheasants absolutely love them. They walk about in the remnants of the blue bells and peck these little black seeds out. 

(13:19)
 But those seeds, if they're allowed to when they drop onto the woodland floor, the leaves then come off the trees and cover them up. So it's a beautiful little seed bed for them if you like. And then you come here in January and you think, oh, the whole woodland floor's covered in looks like little shafts of grass coming through. And when you look down at the base of the grass, it's a tiny little black seed and that's the start of the next generation of bluebells. So when they find a spot like this and with everything we're looking at is just blue. 

Matthew Gudgin (13:53):

Right up the top of the hill there 

Chris Skinner (13:54):

And it goes up to the top of the hill and over the other side, the bluebells on the other side facing north coming to fly about a week later. So that increases the length. And this, because it's chilly this morning, I think it's only six or seven degrees centigrade, the bees aren't working. But bees, moths and butterflies feed on this and we've got quite a lot of brimstone butterflies here this year. The males are that sulphur yellow colour and see a male brimstone flying over the top of the bluebells is a sight for sore eyes. It really is

Matthew Gudgin (14:30):

This is so precious, isn't it? We've lost so many bluebell woods over the years, inevitably because of the growth of population and wild space is going, but this is something that's got to be cherished. 

Chris Skinner (14:40):

Absolutely, it should be protected and looked after. And many of these Bluebell displays are in private ownership as well. So there's a lot of sort of conflict going on between the environment and social care and justice as well. And this conflict is getting more and more sort of distance apart because each one requires special treatment. And anyway they are vulnerable because in the past years we've had lorries come into these woodlands. Once they're finished flowering, you can still see where the leaves are and the bluebell bulbs get dug up and also people will gather them and it doesn't actually hurt the plants gathering them. But if you pull the bluebell up by the roots and you get that little white bit on the bottom, that's the bit that's attached to the bulb of the blue bell quite deep in the soil with the older blue bell bulbs. And that then depletes the bulb so it won't flower for a number of years or it actually can kill it. 

Matthew Gudgin (15:44):

I've got some that come up in my garden every year and I dunno whether someone previous owner has put a bulb in or whether they were 

Chris Skinner (15:49):

That's quite possible, but you need to look at them carefully because this what we call the Spanish Bluebell has the flowers all the way around the stem and they're a little bit more erect, they're a little bit more sort of rigid, whereas these do merely hang on one side once they're fully out, they're really, really beautiful and I just feel very privileged to take you and share this view. It is a huge thing here on the farm and yet it's all on the neglected land. The land that was no good for farming. Of course the land that is good for farming feeds us, but in return it's a huge privilege to look after this. And there's three displays like this at High Ash Farm. One of them's got wooden anemones in and mixed in with the bluebells. All three have early purple orchids as well and we'll go and visit another wood in a minute.

(16:42)
 And it just to prove that I'm not exaggerating, this one is 12 acres and the next one we're going to see is 15 acres and there are more flowers in the combination of those woodlands than there are people in the United Kingdom just on one farm. And it's pretty much a British phenomena as well. You can go to Europe, you do have bluebells growing there, but they're usually in small patches, nothing like this. And botanists will go to the Alps and film and get very excited about the alpine flowers and then they'll come to the UK if they're lucky enough to come in spring, they get just as excited with sights that we are seeing like this.

Matthew Gudgin (17:27):

And you've laid on the sunshine as well.

Chris Skinner (17:29):

Oh, of course I had to, didn't I? 

Matthew Gudgin:

Yes, Ratty enjoying it?

Chris Skinner:

He's here, he's come back, he's just skirted up this woodland ride and come back soaking wet. We won't ask where he is been. But now he's heading back to the truck. He knows we're ready to visit the next wood. 

(17:57)
 Tiptoeing through, not the tulips but the bluebells on the other side of the farm now and suddenly got a bit chill and I think there's a bit of rain in the air as well. So it's that changeable. Classic April conditions. 

Chris Skinner:

Yes, April showers no less. Matthew, very welcome in the woodland here because over the last few years we've had some incredibly dry springs after dry winter months on top of that. And so this year the woodland field layer is just verdant is the only way to describe it as I promised you a second display of bluebells just a few days later because the incline of this steep river cliff behind us is facing due west so it doesn't get quite so much sun. But if you take a deep breath, a sniff, you can pick up that aroma of the bluebells, the perfume that's coming off. 

(18:53)
 It's often not mentioned because the blue kind of attracts all the attention from the senses, but the perfume, once the sun's out on them is absolutely incredible. Anyway, we've got, I dunno how many questions this week. More questions than answers I think. 

Matthew Gudgin:

Well let's try this one for size. Hello, Christine. Christine Holmes who sends us a photograph taken in the woods at bricking. I visit there quite often, she says, and I'm intrigued as to what causes some trees to have the abnormalities that are photographed here. And then there's a photograph of a lovely tree barring these great big growths. What are they, Chris? 

Chris Skinner:

Yes, epicormic is the correct term for them. Epicormic and I looked it up in the dictionary, I do know it because I did arboriculture at college as well. So I studied trees and I learned that word E-P-I-C-O-R-M-I-C. And it's not in my Colllins dictionary, so I was quite surprised about that. 

(19:53)
 But it is nonetheless the term given to what's happened to this oak tree in front of us. And it's covered absolutely smothered from top to bottom in giant burrs. And a bur is, well some of these should we walk up a little bit closer. They're quite large some of these and this will interest foresters as well. And this is a venerable old oak and just look because they're really strange growths and little twigs coming out of some of them. 

Matthew Gudgin:

They're quite large actually, aren't they? 

Chris Skinner:

Yes they are. 

Matthew Gudgin:

They look like mud pies attached to the side of the trunk. 

Chris Skinner:

Yes, probably some of these are 600 mil across, that's 24 inches across and there's one here that's best part of three feet across extremely large indeed. And it goes right way the trunk and Rat’s seen a horse riding through. So we know Rat’s present and he's trying to see the horse. 

(20:53)
 He's quite all right Rat. No problems. Anyway to, so what's happened is when this woodland was forming, there'd be a huge amount of young oak trees, beach trees, maybe Sycamore as well come, I'm going to have to pick this dog up. He has to make an appearance, which is why I don't bring him out on the pod because he takes over, doesn't he? So he's under my arm looking, watching to make sure he's got rid of that horse. He doesn't think they should be here. So talk about distracting. Anyway, these trees were probably packed in one a square metre and they have to fight for the light. Sometimes a venerable old oak tree like this, which is probably 400 years old, had trees growing over the top of it and it forms this epicormic growth as compensation. So it sends out lots of little branches with the twigs on. 

(21:53)
 You can see them tiny little looks like, a bit like a witch's broom, but you often see on sycamore trees and sometimes on silver birch trees as well, these little growths. Anyway, this tree is extraordinary because there's a new phenomena out in the countryside called bur poaching. That'll make you scratch your head. 

Matthew Gudgin:

Bur poaching? 

Chris Skinner:

Bur poaching, which people come in with a chainsaw and cut the birds off the tree. The reason is they're used in wood carving and they make beautiful bowls and there was a wood carve in Norwich in Norfolk. Sadly, he's no longer with us. His name was Patrick Blake, and he made his own tools to carve out beautiful bowls so thin that you can almost read the newspaper through them and the grain is distorted, it goes every which way, but the grain, the bird just doesn't affect the outside of the tree. 

(22:55)
 It goes right through to the heart of the tree. Remember in its infancy it was fighting for light. So this isn't where old branches have been cut off. You can see the bur has actually folded out the bark underneath the look. 

Matthew Gudgin:

I've just felt one. It's rock hard, isn't it? 

Chris Skinner:

Absolutely. They're like rocks. But the new crazies, I mean each bur will shock you in English money. It's worth between two and 300 pounds. So it doubles the value of the tree. But wait for it. If this tree was felled, and I can assure you it's not going to be because it's burred, the trunk is what? Four feet through at least, and it goes up. Best part of 20 feet dead straight. That would be used for table making for furniture. And a good decent butt on an oak tree is worth a thousand pounds. One with burrs like this, well over 10,000 pounds, just unbelievable. So that's why it's absolutely crazy. But that's the phenomenon. That's what you saw in Blickling. But this is a proper oak tree with burrs on it. And so it's really a reaction to not enough light in its infancy and its youth and the burrs, the distorted grain will go right through to the centre of the tree, right into the heartwood, and they're phenomenal. That one above us. I mean if you cut it off, you couldn't lift it.

Matthew Gudgin (24:19):

There's a slug enjoying that one. 

Chris Skinner (24:20):

Yes, 

Matthew Gudgin (24:21):

But they are rock hard when you don't knock into one. 

Chris Skinner (24:28):

So I did have a tree that came down a few years ago and there was a bur on it and a gentleman bought it off me and I thought he was absolutely crazy. He gave me 250 pounds for it and he made pencils out of it. Absolutely beautiful. He showed me one and it was absolutely stunning. So there we are. So there you are, but a buured oak no less.

Matthew Gudgin (24:51):

Well a bur in the hand is what?

Chris Skinner (24:52):

Yes, exactly. We do have a plant that's all sort of prickly and it is called a bur or a bur dock as well. 

Matthew Gudgin (25:01):

Thank you for the photograph and lovely to hear from you Christine. Lots of other questions. Justin and Rachel tuned in and they send a photograph, although Scotland is not usual territory, we've just been on holiday to Dumfries and Galloway and I wondered if Chris may be able to identify what's in this photograph. It's a mystery footprint. Yes, so we've got the photo here. 

Chris Skinner (25:27):

It’s perfect. And I'll just open up the sheet so that we can both have a look. 

Matthew Gudgin (25:32):

It’s not big foot, is it? 

Chris Skinner (25:34):

Not quite. There we are. Hold those. 

Matthew Gudgin (25:38):

Oh, hang on. There's a few toes there, isn't it? 

Chris Skinner (25:40):

Yes. Sharp claws. Not a webbed foot because it's on the side of a lot. My first instinct was to say Otter, it's about the right size, but there's no webbing. There's a heavy heel print and then four very distinct pads. 1, 2, 3, 4, and a slightly smaller one to the left. That's the hind foot, that's the front foot and without doubt, a hundred percent certain right beside us, behind us in this area of woodland, the badger.

Matthew Gudgin:

Mr. Brock, 

Chris Skinner:

Mr. Brock himself. Great big short legs, heavy feet, and long, long claws, which always surprises everybody. The claws are up to 50 millimetres long and used for digging sort of nature's original farmers if you like excavating the land. So there we are. Perfect. And it was lovely to see your footprint beside it as well and that gave me a perfect example of what size the prints were. 

Matthew Gudgin (26:38):

Hello to Tony Clark. What an action packed programme we've listened to this morning. They say we've got regular listeners there with Tony and his other half. So thank you very much for that message. Yes. What else have we got? Bumper, postbag as always. Oh, Storm Kathleen is mentioned by way of apology for my namesakes visit last week. This is from Kathleen. Don't worry. We don't blame you. We don't blame you at all.

Chris Skinner (27:05):

And there she sent an interesting video, which I have yet to see on the farm computer and it's of a crow detaching, bird spikes from a building and throwing them down onto the ground. She said it's very amusing to see and quite educational. So there we are near the bird spikes, Matthew all over the car park. The crows actually detached them from the building. I have noticed them all around buildings in Norwich, so really funny to see that. 

Matthew Gudgin (27:35):

Good for them. Yes. What else have we got here? We've got a bit of verse for you. Yes, I know you like a bit of poetry. Yes. Hello to Ray Dumpleton. Hi Chris. I share your delight at the return each year of our swallows and it reminded me of the song by the folk blues singer and ace guitarist, Martin Simpson, ‘Dark Swift and Bright Swallow April Sun on Slapped and Lee between the Lagoon and the Haunted Sea. I was thinking of war and cruelty when springs first swallow split the sky and I was lifted above all care as the swallow swung through the salted air come from Savannah and Desert Sea to mark another year for me.’ 

Chris Skinner (28:19):

Perfect. I couldn't have put it better to myself. Isn't that lovely? We just love response like that. And when you visited the farm this morning before we came down to the woodland, we were both enjoying the farms swallows there. And look at this, the sun's just come through the trees and that's changed the vista in a second. From spitting April showers to bluebells illuminated. 

Matthew Gudgin (28:42):

You can almost see the blue bells physically moving to the sun. 

Chris Skinner (28:45):

Yes, absolutely incredible sight, isn’t it? 

Matthew Gudgin (28:48):

Jim Sheen listening in the United States. He comes from a place called Pepper in Massachusetts. Thank you for your note, Jim. He was talking about wax wing. Well you talked about wax wing recently, and Jim says, the absence of wax wings changed for me here in Massachusetts three years ago when a migrating flock discovered our shrubs, the birds feast on the bright scarlet berries for three days and then move on returning annually to feed on mass. These winterberry shrubs are remarkably tough and productive and I've included photographs of the feeding going on and there are the red berries and look at that and those gorgeous birds

Chris Skinner (29:28):

Yes, I am envious beyond belief because still at the tender age of 74 and three quarters, I've yet to see a waxwing in the flesh. I just missed them here this year. They were just a few hundred yards from where we are standing. But beautiful birds, the wandering bird. 

Matthew Gudgin (29:49):

Thank you very much for that photograph all the way from New England. 

Chris Skinner (29:52):

I know Massachusetts, I lost my teeth then. 

Matthew Gudgin (29:57):

Massachusetts, it reminds us of the Bee Gees.

Chris Skinner (29:59):

Exactly that. 

Matthew Gudgin (30:00):

Yes. And Steven Lane says, Chris, have you got turtle doves on your farm?

Chris Skinner (30:06):

 I have a hedge especially for them and lots of newly planted wood, which is perfect habitat last year over recording in the woodland. And I heard male turtle dove purring away at two o'clock in the afternoon in early June and sadly it moved on. It hadn't got a mate the last time they bred here was about 20 years ago. There'd been frequent visitors passing through the habitat is here for them. Even a special field with one of their favourite seed plants, which is called fumitary. I encourage that particular plant here and I visited Sicily a few years ago and saw the turtle dove reserve there and I saw perhaps getting on for a hundred turtle doves and the whole sort of vista around me was filled with that fabulous purring sound. There are migratory species and I think it's Britain's fastest declining bird species and it's cousin. Funny enough, the collard dove is Britain's fastest increasing species. So really odd.

Matthew Gudgin (31:13):

But one migrates, the other one doesn't. 

Chris Skinner (31:15):

No, that's right. Yes. Very risky thing to do to migrate. 

Matthew Gudgin (31:19):

Thanks for all the correspondence and you can join in on the podcast every week with an email and the address chris@countrysidepodcast.co.uk. 

Chris Skinner (31:32):

Yes, look at that. And the perfectly behaved dog, I just met him down and he's sitting there waiting for his master to come and do what he would call proper work, which isn't standing under a bur oak in amongst the bluebells. This is not proper work. And so he's coming to rejoin us.  

Matthew Gudgin (31:53):

He saw that horse off anyway, didn't he?

Chris Skinner (31:55):

Yes. Treading very carefully and very delicately through the bluebells without jamming them down. What about that? And sitting down. Perfect. Well thank you Matthew for your visit. And it always just helps illuminate, which is quite a difficult thing to do, to capture the majesty of this. I mean, you can't do it with words. It's a whole sort of sense filling experience, isn't it? Eyes, nose, ears with the bird singing and this terrible terrier that's wanting to be picked up. Here he is. Good boy. 

Matthew Gudgin (32:30):

Well thank you Ratty and thank you Chris. 

Chris Skinner (32:32):

You're very welcome.